SPEAKER_00 0:32

But I also want to talk to you about what it means, you know, when we leave a church, when we walk away from a religious system like a box church, you know, one of the assumptions that people who are in the box church, who are in an institutional church setting like that, one of the assumptions that they make when we when we leave is that we've walked away from God. I suppose some people have, I can't speak for everybody, everybody's situation is a little bit different. But the people that I know haven't walked away from God. In fact, their relationship with God has improved in terms of what they know about it. They understand grace better because they've gotten out of that system where you have to think like everybody else. You know, in the system that we were in, the church that we were in, the church system that we were in, you could talk about any topic within these boundaries. You know, it's like this this wall around around everything. And anything within those walls was fair game. You could talk about anything in there. And that gave the impression that we were really open to things, that we were really cutting edge, that we were really experiencing freedom, because we would say, well, we'll talk about anything in scripture, but that isn't really true. We would talk about anything within those parameters that have been predefined. And if you step outside of those parameters, you're gonna get in trouble. And that's what happened to me. I got in trouble because I started thinking. I started thinking without the group think tank. I wasn't walking away from God. The Holy Spirit was doing something in me that he wasn't doing to most of the people still there. Turns out he was doing it to several because once we left, it was like a mass exodus. They were waiting for the first person to go, I think. So, you know, and that became another thing on its own, you know, where we were able to stay in contact with some of these people, and we started a thing called dinners at six, and we would have people over at our house at six uh once a week or once every two weeks, I forget what it was. And we would talk, it was like the uh walking wounded. You know, we would talk about our experiences and the things that we had gone through, but that's an assumption, I think, that people within the institutional church setting assume when we leave. Well, they've they've left God. But the truth is we've grown. The truth is we're bearing fruit, that's a different kind of fruit. We're bearing fruit that's there by overflow, not by obligation. And so when we leave a religious setting, when we leave a church setting, it's assumed that we're somehow walking away from God, but that's not true at all. So if you're thinking about leaving a church system, you think, oh, I might be walking away from God. You can't. Remember, he holds you, you don't hold him. And if he's doing something different in your life that's moving you away from a religious system, seek him on that. As hard as it can be to find friends afterwards and so on. And I don't, again, I don't have all the answers, and I'm not going to sugarcoat it and say, oh, it's easy. Because it's not. But it's necessary. If the Holy Spirit's doing this with you, it's necessary. And you don't know where he's going to take you. You don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, we left in 2009. It was a while ago. And it's still an adventure every day, you know, not knowing what's going to happen. You know, what where's he going to take us today? Where's he going to lead us today? I don't have all the answers. I don't know. But I know that I'm living by faith one day at a time, and that I am not obligated to do things out of obligation any longer. But I can I can do them out of overflow, out of what he's done in my life and what he's doing in my life. So walking away from a religious system isn't the same as walking away from faith. And I know some people have done that. They've deconstructed their faith, and you know, maybe they weren't believers to begin with. I don't know. Not my call. It's above my pay grade. But that isn't what happened to me and isn't what happened to us. We may have thought it was at the beginning. I'm sure we did. My wife's experience was a little bit different than mine. And uh, you know, she probably thought that at the beginning. I probably thought that a little bit too. But that wasn't the case. That wasn't the case because he's faithful and he doesn't leave us. He never leaves us. And so what happens is, you know, as we migrate out of that, at least this was my experience, that we migrate towards something that's more honest. We're not pretending anymore. We're not we don't wear the mask. I have a really cool mask, one of those full head rubber ones. I should have worn it. We're not wearing these religious masks anymore. We're being real, we're being who we are. You know, what you see is what you get. And we learn to start stripping the layers off of those masks that we wear. And when that happens, it's important to know this. If this is happening to you right now, or if it's happened to you, you can you can uh relate to it. Be kind to yourself, give yourself grace because you're meeting parts of yourself that you've never met before. And so it's important that you be gracious to yourself, that you not be in a rush or in a hurry to understand everything, that you not feel pressured to have all the answers. When I left that initial system, and I was in a leadership position, I was asked over and over again to clarify what I was doing. And I couldn't. I didn't know. I don't I don't know. Ask me in ten years because I don't know right now. I'm in the thick of it, and I don't know, I can't articulate it. I just know that I don't belong here anymore. That something different is happening in my heart and in my life that's caused me to not belong here. That's all I know. My heart isn't in it. I remember giving that as a as a reply. My heart isn't in it. I don't know anymore. Now today I can articulate it a little bit better because again, that was 2009. So it's been a while. I've had some some time to think that through, and my wife and I did the Grace Cafe podcast for years, and in that podcast that we had, um we would sit across the table and we would talk that out. We would talk about these things. What happened? How did it happen? Where are we going now? I mean, to sit there and and talk that stuff through was healing. So if that's you, Pam, maybe that's you too, with your hubby. Talk this stuff out and just be real and be honest and be open and say what you're thinking. You know, good, bad, or ugly. We had some good friends too. Um, Joe and Deirdre are two of those friends that just let us be who we are. They didn't require anything of us. They understood where we were coming from, they knew. And they would let us drop F-bombs, they would they would just let us be who we were in the moment because it was a season of life that we were in that we had to work through, that we had to we had to let happen in order for it to be authentic. And so it's important that you have that time to really and don't be rushed. Don't be rushed, don't let anybody rush you either into thinking that man, you have to have all the answers, or maybe this isn't legitimate. No, that's not true. The answers may come in time, but it can take a long time. It really can. So, you know, after leaving, you know, it's a step towards something more honest in your life. You know, it's it's not about doing anymore. It's about trying to become more grounded in grace, to become more grounded in the gospel, and to realize that that's all you really need. That's all we've ever really needed. And so it becomes more personal, it become more grounded in those things. You're actually uh moving towards something deeper. Something deeper on the outside of that religious system than what was on the inside. And I think that that's important. So another thing to expect too is um people that are still in there, that are still in that system, are going to be surprised at you, obviously. And some of them are going to disown you. That's a fact. We had friends that we thought were lifelong friends. It turns out we were only friends as long as we were useful to them in a religious sense. And they dropped us like a hot potato. So that happens, and that's not easy. I'm not going to sugarcoat it and say that it's easy because it's not. But it happens. But through it all, keep in mind that this is what the Lord's doing on you, he's or doing through you. He's he's moving you ahead in your journey, he's moving you onto something new. Whatever that looks like for you, that's where he's taking you. And so be encouraged by that. Be encouraged that he has not abandoned you, that he is taking you on a on a better path, on a better direction for you. And I would encourage you too to not be judgmental of those that are still there, that maybe you know you've left behind there, uh, to not be critical of them at all. But just be on your journey and see where God, see where God takes you. You know, see what see what direction he uh leads you in as you go on this uh journey with him. Because you never know, you never know where you're gonna end up. You never know what's going to happen. So be encouraged by that. I hope you find some encouragement in that.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Thank you for joining us on the Un Sunday show. To be a part of this ongoing conversation, visit us online at onSundayShow.com or